Battery Potential
Battery Potential is a retrospective on the early days of the commercialization of Li-ion batteries. Pioneers of the of Li-ion battery industry from the 80s, 90s, and 2000s are interviewed by two battery scientists: Vincent Chevrier and Kevin Eberman.
Battery Potential is produced by Cyclikal LLC, a battery consulting and testing company. See cyclikal.com for more information.
Battery Potential
Karim Zaghib - Hydro Québec
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Join us as world-renowned electrochemist Dr. Karim Zaghib shares his incredible journey through the history of lithium-ion batteries. Bridging academia and industry, Dr. Zaghib discusses his early research in Europe in the 80s and his front-row seat to Japan's 1990s battery boom. We also dive into his pivotal work commercializing LFP and LTO technologies at Hydro-Québec alongside legends like Michel Armand and John Goodenough, and his current views on how to shape the future of battery development in North America.
Karim Zaghib - Hydro Québec
SPEAKER_02I don't know how many francophones were living in Japan with lithium experience for Hydro Quebec to find. So you were really the diamond in the rock.
SPEAKER_01But I was very happy to join Hydro Quebec.
SPEAKER_02Welcome to the Battery Potential Podcast. I'm Vincent Chevrier. And I'm Kevin Eberman. Welcome to Battery Potential, Kevin. Vincent. Today we welcome Karim. Welcome, Karim Zaguib. A huge thanks for joining us on the podcast. You've had a long career and many contributions to the field of lithium-ion batteries. You've also had the unique chance to bridge the industrial and academic worlds. It's not every day that you meet someone with so much industry experience that has an H index of over 100. From working on graphites with Rashid Yazami to working in Japan, you then had a long tenure at Hydro Quebec with instrumental contributions to LFP and LTO, as well as fruitful collaborations with Michel Armand and John Goodenough. Today you are a professor at Concordia University in Montreal. You've also had many successes in the battery community, where you've been very involved in conferences, networking, and even being a historian of the field. So again, welcome, Karim. We're really looking forward to this conversation.
SPEAKER_00So thank you, Vincent and Kevin, for a great invitation. I'm very happy to be with you today. So thank you very much.
SPEAKER_02Fantastic.
Asthma to Batteries
SPEAKER_02Why don't we start with the beginning? And how did you get into batteries?
SPEAKER_00So I think early 15 years I have a problem with asthma. So and uh I was with my parents on a big traffic jump, and I have a lot of uh breathing.
SPEAKER_01And uh early at 15 years I was my thinking to be independent for fossil fuels and my ways to how to do to go to electrochemistry, to learn about uh material science, how especially how to be independent for fossil fuels. So I was early in 1979. So because of my asthma and my health problems, I was thinking how can go to chemistry, electrochemistry, and a little bit to be part of changing the world. So uh so since 1979, I never do anything except focusing on chemistry, cultural chemistry, material science, battery, and EV.
SPEAKER_05Wait, so are you saying that you know there you were with asthma and looking at all the uh exhaust coming you know into the air around you and thinking, well, this is no good for my asthma. I've got to do something to to help stop this. Is that what you're saying?
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes. Asthma and if and and is now in seven, I born in 1963. So in the if you see in the 70s, early 70s they are not the kind of the catalyst here. If you are taking the bus and you're not lucky to be in the middle and the end of the bus, it's tough for you. So I can tell you, very tough. If you are having like one hour, four hours, five hours, good luck. Other thing I'm researching every year, you see today, I can give you some numbers from Harvard University. About about two, three years, the numbers that they pass away due to the accident, car accident and truck accident, is around two millions by year. But if you see the numbers that the people that pass away because of the pollutions and this air pollution and these small particles coming from diesel and gasoline is over eight million a year. Wow. Yes, much worse. Just Google Harvard and these guys, they work on these numbers, very serious study, is big numbers. Uh, I think China was the more advanced. They already studied this problem, and why they make electrification of transportations uh near around 2010, they said that it's big investment on health, big investment on the hospital. We need to have the way how to make electrification of transportation and the society.
SPEAKER_02Because of the air quality. Fascinating. Wow. Yeah, yeah, so interesting. That's really a personal connection and really a desire to motivate
Grenoble Mentors
SPEAKER_02the world. So then, so you launched yourself into scientific studies with this vision in mind, and you ended up doing your PhD at the Grenoble Institute of Technology, is that right?
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes. Uh I I believe I like to thank uh one person. There, two persons was helping me at this time, maybe three persons, okay. So the first guy who's really introduced me to the batteries in the middle of the 80s. I think the two person they pass away, but I don't like to forget them. Uh Claude De Poignier. So I was doing the alloy, third alloy, like lithium, aluminium, manganese. I have one publication with him in the Electrochemical Society Proceeding Volume. You see, before we publish on the proceeding volume, there are not many papers only, Electrochemical ACTA, Electrochemical Society, and then you have journal power source. We don't care about the impact factor at this time, okay? We need to have the rigors, and we make everything by papers, by hand, and so on. So I uh uh because Michel Armand was in Grenoble at this time, the solid state polymer battery was very important. The lithium, I believe this is in 84-85. So I was training with him, and he teaches me how to make lithium, aluminium, manganese as alloy on molten salt. So there was the negative electrode. This is I come to the world of uh the negative electrode. And this is, I believe, this early they bring me to the electrochemicial batteries, and then I really study with two women, very outstanding women. And another one is they call it Madame Barbier. Uh, Madame Barbier, uh, she was the head of electrochemistry in Grenoble and his father, his father, he was the founders. There was only one of the largest schools of electrochimie in Grenoble. They call it Ecole d'Electrochimie, the Electrométallurgie de Grenoble, and his father, he was the founder of this school. He's one of the outstanding schools. And then my PhD thesis, what I learned a lot on health at uh is Bernadette and Guyen. With I was doing many on copper and zinc. So this is mainly was the way how to go from anode material to understand the zinc and copper. So this is the three persons that was playing an important role in my life to really go through the material science, electrochemistry. At this time, this school, they are very, very known. Many of the professors they have great books, fundamental books like uh kinetics and thermodynamics of electrochemistry by Mr. Besson.
Early Lithium Pioneers
SPEAKER_01So if you go to the 70 and so on, and also we get a lot of chances that may be many Nobel Prizes uh coming to this school at this time. I mean, I remember Brian Steele. I am very sorry to see, for example, TSU2 and the sodium, lithium TSU2, intercalation compound. They come with this guy that he's giving us uh workshop. This guy is uh from I think from uh uh London, College of London. Brian Steele, we forget a lot about himself. He was doing outstanding courses in Grenoble, and uh he's the father of intercalation compound of uh sodium and lithium in TSO too. Some some people and direct that I work with them, some people also I learn from them. Uh as I said, John Godinov also is coming with uh uh to give us also seminar in Grenoble. Another guy also sometimes we forget spoke about him, he's Hagen Millers. Hagen Millers is uh solid state chemistry uh professors. He was in uh in Bordeaux and he's coming also to give us uh lessons. There was uh Philippe Tousin, many people from interconnection compound graphite. So we were very lucky to have outstanding training.
SPEAKER_05Really big group of of uh luminary people there.
SPEAKER_01Uh yes, yes, yes. And uh, I believe uh you can see many books was appearing in 1972 to 74. This is NATO schools, maybe new generation today, maybe they cannot find this kind of the books or the proceeding. But uh if you see the NATO school in uh uh in Italy in 1972, many like 15 or 20 papers showing the best uh, for example, the rocking share uh concept that Michel Armand he presented, Brian Steely presented the uh the sodium and lithium TSO2 and so on. So I was very lucky in the beginning of 80. We are learning, and then Bruno Scorzati came with the first international meeting on lithium batteries. In 1982, I was young, but I was being second and third and so on. Very interesting. So it's not only the people they are training you, but you're inspiring you. So at this time, yes, at this time, these people were very angry to show us what they were doing at early stage.
SPEAKER_05What
Copper Zinc Recycling
SPEAKER_05did you do with copper and zinc? I didn't understand that. What was that word?
SPEAKER_01Copper, copper and zinc, uh, we call it metal reaction displacement, cementation. Let's see, let's see if you are recycling, if you are recycling, recycling material for battery or so on, and then we call it metal, metal, uh metal displacement. So you are and you have zinc and copper, and you put solution of of uh uh copper sulfate, and you put electrode, uh uh rotating electrode, and then you're going to recover the copper.
SPEAKER_05I get it.
SPEAKER_01Okay, and then uh I think we publish the first uh new method, we call it uh added added electrolysis, added cementations, copper zinc, electrochemical acta. So was many breakthroughs at this time. So if you Google my name, CD, one of the first new methods using metallic uh metal uh metal reaction displacement and electrolysis.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and actually, you you've written a paper called um Brief History of Early Lithium Battery Development, and you capture a lot of these names um in it. So if you know if anybody wants to sort of get this on paper, a lot of that is captured in in that paper. Um what an interesting time to be in this field. So many um, you know, so many sort of founders of of the lithium-ion field being active and so many technologies being developed, a really fruitful
Writing Battery History
SPEAKER_02time.
SPEAKER_01Do you know why uh why I publish this paper? I take almost one year and a half, okay? One one years and a half. So uh go ahead for your question. Sorry, sorry, just finish your question. No, no, no, I was asking. Yeah, we want to know we want to know why you published it. That's not interesting. Okay, so uh I was invited by Professor John Guninoff to this ceremony of Nobel Prize, okay? I was with him for one week, very close with John. As I told you, I was inspiring with John when he came in uh beginning of 80 in Grenoble, and he came to Bordeaux to give us a presentation. Long, long relationship with John Guninoff, okay? And during, as I said, during my uh my uh broadcast today, I'm not going to spoke anybody one person. My way is to make great things for our something useful for our society. I'm not to spoke with this one, this one is not my role. Um for me, I like to have a peace, to have a good relationship with the people, not mudding people and so on. So when I saw John Goodinov getting this Nobel Prize, and I was seeing my my analyze since I started this one since 1979, I was thinking that there are two people where they are missing for Nobel Prize. The first one was Nishi from Sony. As you know, I was spending five years of my life in Japan working with Sony, Panasonic, all these guys. Specially I create also joint venture with Sony here in Quebec. They call it Italians. I was inspired by all the Japanese manufacturing company when was in Japan in the beginning of 80. So I was feeling that very bad. How Sony, the first company, to introduce to us the manufacturing and the industriation is not there. This is number one, and number two, what's the name was missing, of course, Brain Steel is is died, is not there, but Michel Armand was on life, and Michelle came back in 1972 with intercalation compound and lithium ion concept. And then I am not against any person get Nobel Prize, congratulations to everyone. But I write this paper really to show that please not forget that the people that they pass away or the people that are live, they are doing outstanding job for our humanity and also and forget about forget about this kind of uh do you know bad bad energy between two two people and so on. Let's give the credit to the right people.
SPEAKER_02Nice, nice.
Teamwork and Networks
SPEAKER_02Right. So it really highlights Michel Alman's contributions to the field. So, you know, these these relationships that you created very early in your career at the PhD level and later, you kept for a long time, right? They became sort of foundational to your career as well.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, it's uh as I said, my way to think and to work is teamwork. You you know sometimes what you call it small small team distrap. And this is coming from very interesting nature paper coming from group of uh sociology group from uh University of Chicago. They said small team distrap and large team develop. These guys, I was very impressed. Their paper, they analyze over 65 million of papers, 65 million of patent, and they come with this title for the paper and long-term relationship. As I said, I I was working very close with Michel Gautier, Michel Armand, and also with John Godinov, and another guy also, maybe you see my paper over 30 years, even today, he's retired, outstanding, is Kim Kinoshita from Lawrence Beckley Lab. Because I get a lot of money. Sometimes the people they spoke badly on USA and me, USA, they was helped my uh my my careers for over 30 years. I received many grants from the Department of Energy US, many grants from Department of Defense, US Army, and so on. I am very thankful. And this is for long relationship. So I get, I think, in order to build the life is take and give. You have one ID, I have one ID.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, we are three person.
SPEAKER_01Vincent has one ID, Kivan has one ID, and they have one ID. By the end of the day, I'm getting three IDs. Yeah, and three of us, it's win-win. But if you are working on my side and also in silo, not giving my heart, giving my IDs, I think I cannot go so far.
SPEAKER_05Right. Yeah, that's really uh that's that's that's a beautiful picture, actually. Yeah, thank you.
Graphite and Japan Move
SPEAKER_05You know, I'm curious. Going back to the early days there, you're working on graphite. Can you describe what was going on there and how you got into that? And like what were the big challenges you overcame with graphite, chemical lithiation of graphite?
SPEAKER_01I believe Sony, there was very fast to come back with the lithium-ion batteries, with graphite and hard carbon. And my way said, okay, this is the place that I need to learn, to see, to make the link between the fundamental and also research on on graphite and so on. I was doing some postdoc with SAFT, with Michel Brusley and Yazami, and this is was mainly on chemical and passivation of lithium on graphite, but not deeply on the graphite. Because we never change anything, we just taking graphite, carbon fibers, and doing. But I think the word of graphite at this time was Japan. I can explain you. Osaka gas, uh uh mainly was um kan sai coke and petroleum in Kobe, uh Nikiso in Japan in Shizuoka, Mitsubishi, Hitachi Chemical, and um because at this time graphite not only using for bati but using for many applications. But Japanese, they were the more advanced to the process and so on. And I was very lucky because I joined what they call it the new sunshine project. And at this time, in the early 90s, when I finished my PhD, I was after this one year's postdoc with SAFT, I was in the right time and the right people. And then I learned how to make VGCF, vapor carbon fibers, X meso fibers, uh, natural graphite, artificial graphite.
SPEAKER_05And this during your time in Japan, you're talking about?
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes. This is the most the most uh the most important uh part of my life that I I really link the fundamental research with applied research, with all the companies they was anti. So I was publishing with the paper with uh on VGCF, and at these times I have a contact directly with uh Jeff Dan, Testing. So Jeff Danny was working on this area. This is what he was connected with Jeff Dan about what I'm doing in Japan. So early 1990, and this time was for me the best way is really I was understanding how to make spherical graphite. And I I put I was in contact with Hosokawa, how to make process, and then I was contact with Narash Machini, how to make a hybridizer to shop the carbon fibers, and then I start also to learn about purification.
Japan Work Culture
SPEAKER_05What was the you know that that shift when you go over to Japan and I think it's 92? You know, was there a did you have to change your your kind of research culture style or or was it kind of easy to uh or did you have to make an adjustment to be working in Japan there?
SPEAKER_01I I I believe I believe you need to make an adjustment for cultures because many of the Japanese cannot speak English, and then if they speak English, they are shy to make mistakes, but usually they are very welcome people, very nice. So adjustment to the culture, adjustment to the food, you need to work very hard. At this time, I believe you need to work the weekend, night, day, the culture the pose is here until 10 p.m. You cannot keep before 10 p.m. and so on. But but it's opportunities, and then I believe if you have your you if you have your own creativity, and then what I like in Japan at this time is the scale up the technology and industrializations. This is really I really I learn a lot for these two parts. Of course, I come with very outstanding creativity coming from my PhD, my uh my work on the alloys, on carbon, on graphite, on carbon, and zinc. But the part I just working on a few grams or few one centimeters, and then and then you scale to kilograms, two tons, and so on. So this is, I think, I make the best bridge between I was doing modeling, I was doing fundamental research, and then applied research and industrialization was missing in my career. So I I really make the what you call it the triangle on my life modeling fundamental and then applied with industrialization and scale-up technologies.
SPEAKER_05Right. So you were you were connected to like the the scale-up and manufacturing of those uh technologies.
SPEAKER_01Yes. And at this time, what this time, what happened, as you know, in Japan, everything was controlled by the MITI. The MITI we call it Ministry of International Trade and Industry. And during this period until 1995, what I'm joined uh joined uh Hydro Quebec, uh Panasonic they start to make lithium iron battery. Uh Matsushita or Panasonic today they start. Uh of course I spoke with Sanyo. GS Yuasa start lithium iron battery. There was very interesting joint. Venture they start between Asahi and Toshiba making lithium iron battery. You see all the domination, and then I learn also how this Japanese company make stable chain supply around their factory. How to make fast and then to make automatization. So it was a really, as I said, good timing to see this gigafactory growth in the same times, and then only you can see them taking shinkans in about three hours. In three hours, you see all this company very fast.
SPEAKER_02Wow. So, you know, that's that's really quite a unique experience to be able to have sort of the you know, some some of the best academic minds, and then from there you go to the with your PhD, and then you go to the industry in Europe for your postdoc, and then you have the foresight to say the key industrial events are happening in Japan. I need to go to Japan, right? So maybe can you walk us through that that sort of that moment where you realize, oh, I have to go to Japan and how does that happen?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I I think uh uh the the golden age of uh of uh of Japan was there. So so was with me some postdoc and student. I believe one guy he was he was a student or postdoc Japanese. We play uh uh football soccer with us. So and he told me there's a very, very good, um I was a very good player of soccer. So and then we uh when we discuss uh we with them and with these two guys, I believe one is retired and one is created his company, was very successful in Japan. And he told me, I believe uh he saw in me as I have also not only researcher but uh entrepreneur behavior. And he told me that Osaka Research Institute so they have a national project. So before they called their project, they called it more light, more light. And the project I contact directly, he asked me to contact directly the project leaders, uh, new sunshine project. And he was my boss, very nice boss, uh Shinishi. Uh his name is uh uh Shinishi. And then I write him very fast. He said, Let's come, very welcome. And then he wants to only let us get a visa quickly. And this is what's very good, also. This program is a combination between universities, in institutes, a government, industry, and they have the goals. What's the goals they want to reach? What's also milestones and very well established, and then they they open you the doors to make training at university, uh, and they have also shared facilities. For example, if you like to do some institute, you can do in this one. So we are not locating in one place, and this is very good. So we're learning by working with industry directly in their place, working to see what happened in the manufacturing side and so on.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, this type of institute doesn't really exist in US, Canada, or France, right? We it's a different no, it's uh as I told you.
SPEAKER_01Uh I I I believe you saw uh recently uh the Nobel Prize at MELB presenting. You see, it's very difficult to ask it the Apple people with uh do you know Facebook people with uh Microsoft. Uh I'm creating an institute and send 10 people for each team. Let's work together.
SPEAKER_05Right, yeah, they don't do that.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you you see uh when uh uh Yoshino san he presented uh the institute that he's leading in Kyoto and asking all the competitors come together, come together, but because the way I I think this clever way, they are working for the interest of Japan before of interest of their companies. Yeah, so it's a culture. Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_05Fascinating.
Factories and Trust
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so you you had the chance to to visit the factories of Sony and Panasonic and Sanyo in those in those key in those pivotal years, the early 90s when the lithium-on battery was first commercialized, is that right?
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes, I I been chance, and this is also based on trust. When you have in Japan, very important, when you hard worker, you have the rigor and you have your deep what you work and based it on the honesty and keeping confidentiality and keeping this, and you build the trust. When you build the trust, really you can get advantage to be seen the best. When I work with Yasuda, my counter partner in Nishi and all these people, I was asking someplace that not almost few people or not people they can see. And this is also when I come here in Quebec, in Canada, and so on, and uh I get outstanding bosses like uh Tri van Daal and so on. I said it's better that we work with our intuitions and working with trust people. And then I recommend at this time to Hadro Quebec. Hydro Quebec is great utility, but we don't know to manufacturers. And me, I pick by choice. Our friend Japanese. I have a choice at this time between Panasonic, uh Yoshiro san, uh she uh Yoshiro Watanabi san is the father of Giga Factory today, is CTO Panasonic, is an outstanding friend. Relationship over 35 years. Even today, I call him anytime, same thing. So you need to build this outstanding relationship which take and give, keep confidentiality, and keep win-win. And this is what I create the Italians joint venture in Sony and Heidcook with 5050. Yes, I get access to see the best manufacturer in early stage, and this is because of the trust, even the trust, it's long term, it's not short term. You need to keep it even before beyond your death.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I love that.
SPEAKER_02So um, if you think back to that time in Japan, 92 to 95, and you go from you know, you go from the the the lab where you've you've seen things at the gram level, and all of a sudden you get to see the lithium ion chemistry implemented at the megawatt hour scale, let's say. Um does anything stand out in your memory of what you saw or what surprised you?
Gemba Kaizen Lessons
SPEAKER_01This is what I saw. Taking risk is very important. Not afraid to take risk. And then also if you have great ID, share it. It's very important. You find the people that you listen to, you and so on. What I learned in Japan, the speed from ID to market is very quick. They know very well time to market. As you know, Japan is different from Canada. Canada, we have ecosystem, we have all the critical mineral, we have the energy, we have the great space. In in Japan, 70% you know are all their business is to find something to survive, to do it, and so on. So the necessity to bring the product to the market is the time, and also how to be the first in the market is the key. And then also, I they're using many great analysis. I learned the Gamba Kaizen. I I use the Gamba Kaizen even today. It's the best way to manage. Let's give you, for example, yeah.
SPEAKER_05Tell us what the Gambakisen is.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, the the Gamba Kaizens, this is is Imamai's son that this professory comes with this kind of the great management. So let's give you one example 3C. When you work with Sony, everything we can we should do it is 3C. Competition, what's your competitor? How what's your uh your company? What's your product of the company today? What's the client need? You need to analyze that. For example, the 5Y. You need to ask you people questions and questions and questions to do this one. For example, Toyota, they're using just on time, not to put your stuff for two, three years here and so on. Uh, for example, Muda. MUDA is uh in Japanese, this is the West. When you manufacture, why is usually you need to have zero Muda, so zero West on this one, and then you need to have small meetings every day with your team, not many teams, so and try to see what happened in the factory and so on. So I was learning this is also early, and then even today, I'm using in my management and so on. This is very important when we learn the the Gambakaisen management, the speed to go to the market, time to market, milestones, and also to be working with you know high energy team, not uh, oh your ID is very bad, not doing this one. It's yeah, better working with high energy team.
SPEAKER_05Okay, yeah, yeah. I always thought of it as there's gatekeepers and there's problem solvers. I want to work with problem solvers.
SPEAKER_01Okay, I fully agree with you.
Joining Hydro Quebec
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So you you finish your work in in Japan, and then how do you end up at Hydro Quebec? How do you learn about them? How do you choose to be able to do that?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, what I uh sometimes in your life. Okay, so in 1790, 79, my parents, there was I was good in school, they're wishing become like a medical doctor to get some money, stable, have a wife, have a house, and then when tell them going to Eeve and so on, there was they love me, I love them, but they said, Oh, with this job, I not think so you go far, I know so you get marriage, and not to get home anyway. He said it's my choice, okay? And same thing, I would never think to go to Japan without these two friends in the soccer and so on. And then also, I never thinking to go to Canada. My thinking to find some. I like teaching, I like academia. So my thinking maybe after Japan to go to academia in Europe, in France, or other places. Okay, and then Michel Armand has a contract working with uh for a long time since 1979 with Hydro Quebec and especially with Michel Gauthier. Okay, Michel Gauthier was at this time, and then uh Hydro Quebec was working on lithium metal polymer battery, okay? And then both of Michel Gauthier and Michel Armand said, Oh, we want to see lithium ion Japanese there fast, so we need really to see how we can adapt this technology, not putting eggs on lithium polymer, let's put some eggs in lithium iron batteries. And then Michel knew me for a long time. Michel Armand. Michel Gauthier don't know him before. And then uh Michel, he write to me and said, listen, Hydro Quebec is uh interesting to you in order to introduce lithium iron batteries uh to Canada, to Hydro Quebec, they're looking for francophone for the skill like you, is good company. And Michelle at this time is coming to Montreal as professor at the University of Montreal. Same time, we come same. So Michel is planning to come as University of Montreal, and they said listen is a good idea, and then so they fly to Japan and they meet me in Japan, in Osaka. Oh wow, in 1994. So the administrator of uh of ASEP, accumulator the uh the project with Michel Gauthier. Very, very, very nice meeting. They invited me to the restaurant, they said uh we're interested to come and so on. Uh but they they asked me, I must come as soon as possible. And then was great interview with them. And then I told them I need to spoke with my boss. I don't like to have any bad relationship in Japan. Because you see, after 1995, the best people that they helped me in my careers with Hydro-Quebec was Japanese. So, in order to make this relationship great, so I spoke with my boss, I said they said, please, you need to give me six months to move. And I I I write uh I I write uh to to Hydro Quebec, and they said, if you want to wait for me six months, so they was very positive. They said yes, they're not any issues. We want to welcome you, Michel Armand. This time was very happy. And I arrived on 13 March 1995. And Michelle, it was, I think it was February 1995. He joined uh University of Montreal and uh I was joining uh join uh Hydro Quebec at this time in this work.
SPEAKER_02I don't know how many um how many francophones were living in Japan with lithium ion experience for Hydro Quebec to find. So you were you were really the uh the diamond in the rough.
SPEAKER_01There was only one, there was a chance, but uh, but I was uh honestly speaking, I was uh very very happy uh to be to join uh Hydro Quebec.
Hydro Quebec Peak Years
SPEAKER_01Uh the relationship was very outstanding, very good. And I believe we we passed very good four years, very, very outstanding. Uh it's my best years in Hydro Quebec was in 90 in 1995 to 1999.
R and D Shutdown
SPEAKER_01And in 1999, there was a decision that Hydro Quebec stopped doing all research and development on batteries. Wow, yes, after uh after uh so I I was developing lithium ion battery. I met our friend 3M uh Larry Krauss, and then we want to do some stuff on lithium ion batteries. I introduced the technology. I started this time to work with uh GS UASA, and then UASA we have a very good project how to develop ultra-thin uh and then I think we make uh one of the best proposals with uh 3M on lithium ion gel. So it was a very good outstanding four years until 1999 was uh and uh was very hard time. Yeah, very hard time. Uh so I believe we were like 35 to 40 uh because uh Hydro Quebec uh uh the decision was really to spin off the lithium polymer batteries uh to outside, and then at this time Michel Gauthier was it was 55 years, so he I think he he he asked to be resigned and he joined uh Michel Armand at University of Montreal. And in 1999, all the group is collapsed, but uh as you know, my mission uh of course we was permanent, so we have a live job in Hydro Quebec. And Hydro Quebec they tell us we have you have one year, we have one year to to find any training, to go any job, okay.
Self Funded Lab Deal
SPEAKER_01And then honestly speaking, I was thinking to quit Hydro Quebec or say, but we built very good labs, we have good labs here, good people. And then I was very happy there was a VP of research is coming as a new, and they told him, I make a deal with him. He said, Listen, it was like three two or three people. He said, Can I make a deal with you? I want to be self-finance, I'm not asking Hydro Keyback. And then if I'm not selfing self-iron, he said, okay, let's make a deal. And thanks to the Department of Energy US, to Lawrence Beckley Laboratory with Kim Kunosita and so on. I make a proposal, even I was not not US.
SPEAKER_06Right.
DOE Backing for LFP
SPEAKER_01And this time I make a proposal to develop lithium ion body using LAP and graphite and LAP. Phosphate, yeah. Yeah, phosphate and LAP using LTU. I make a proposal to Tian Dong, to the Department of Energy US, and also for Berkeley was Mac McLaurence, uh, Frank McLaurin, and Kim all said, Oh my guys, your proposal is great. Let's finance. They finance me for five years.
SPEAKER_05I built like 2000, is the year 2000, somewhere around?
SPEAKER_01Yes, it's 2000, yes, 1999-2000, very fast. I believe I was in the workshop in 1999 in Argo National Lab, and this workshop is belonged to the DOE, they call it BATT Battery for Advanced Transportations, Michael was handled by uh by uh Frank Macron and Kim Kinoshita and Tian Dong. Tian Dong was the I make the proposals, they said, Oh guys, you bring so I believe the DOE in 9 they was the fans, the first to give the chance, and I I believe I was collaborated directly with John Goodinov. So they give really uh the the the big chance to bring this technology to the market.
SPEAKER_05So what was at that time, you know, you know, where what was the sort of the technical status of lithium-iron phosphate when you st when you started working on it, and then you know, where did you take it to? Like what what were its challenges when you started and and what were the solutions that were found?
SPEAKER_01Well, what we do at this time, what we do at this time, I subcontract, I subcontract University of Montreal, okay, for two things. On to continue to develop LAP with me, uh, with Michel Gauthier and Michel Armand, and also I subcontract uh University of Montreal to develop the first development of LIFSI for lithium ion batteries. This is in 1999. This is was subcontract. So I get money from DOE and I subcontract for them,
Scaling Up Materials
SPEAKER_01and then also for scalp of the powders and so on. I was using many Japanese companies uh like um uh Ozukawa in Japan and also Nori. Noritaki, one of the best uh oven producers. So uh and uh from that, what we can uh of course in 2010, we're coming in 2010, I was organizing international meeting of lithium batteries. Okay, and at this time uh Chinese they were very smart that LAP for them was the best way to go. So they was developing at this time. Uh, as you know, uh I was organizing International Unit in 2010 in honor of John Goodinhoff, and uh of course I was invited um uh invited uh our CEO Terry Van Daal. He was also playing an important role. Two CEO is going to spoke also after that with Eric Martel. The second CEO was playing a role to help us. So Tiri Van Daal, when he came, uh he tell all when he met all people we know Karim, Karim, and once he said, I want to have breakfast with Karim. I get breakfast with him, and then I asked him my story that I started for scratch, and then he said, I am here to help you, and then he was helping me. Uh, very important to see the way he got
Opening LFP Licensing
SPEAKER_01so at this time in 2010, he made a very big announcement that uh Hydro Quebec will be open the license to any companies, and then from 2010 the the license to the patents for lithium iron phosphate. The phosphate, and then we can start very good teams at this time. Pamela McGavin, George, and others. We make very outstanding teams around me, and we really we we create very good, one of the best license portfolio. I remember under my uh my uh my direction, scientific directions, and of course it's team uh teamwork. We sell about 63 licenses worldwide.
SPEAKER_05Okay, got it.
SPEAKER_01And then for LAP license is uh 10 million front payment by license, which is big money, and then as you know, 10 million up front, but each license for LAP is 10 million.
SPEAKER_05Wow. And then there's also royalty?
SPEAKER_01And the royalty is ten percent by KG or two percent. Yes. Very successful story. Very successful. That's a big it's big, big, huge money going to Hydro Quebec and the partners of Hydro Quebec. So there was a partnership.
SPEAKER_05For listeners, typical material licenses and technologies that were like nothing until your first million and then maybe uh three percent.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes, no, no. This is very successful, very good team, very good team. There was another uh guy also, James Gisop, very good team, small team, but strong. And then, as you you know, the all the money going to Hydro Quebec and partners. And the Terry van Daal, my CEO, when I see this is big money, because as author of the IP, we we give the IP to the company. We never get any any money. So but he was very smart.
Building World Class Pilot
SPEAKER_01He told me, okay, I can I can help to build one of the best lab in the world. So I I build with my team one of the uh and then I learned from Japanese way to make the scale-up technology and industrialization of the lab. So we make from one gram to ten tons in the same lab. Right. And then we make for one cell 200,000 of cells, like 8060 cells, a format cells, right, uh prismatic cell in the same place.
SPEAKER_04Wow.
SPEAKER_01So for the same place we make from the materials to the system, and then we create when he came, he said, Thierry Vandal, we need to create joint vendor with Sony, and we bring Sony in the same place. You see, if there's any problem, we resolve our problem by ourselves. We cannot see uh is his problem or his problem, is our problem because all the steps I made them in the same place in in Varen in Shawiniga.
SPEAKER_04Wow, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02So just uh to sort of recap, um, so you join you join Hydro Quebec in 95, you have this this era of you know four to five years where it's these really rich interactions with with um 3M and Armand and you're working on these on these systems. There's the Polymer batteries. Um, I think they get spin-off to to Avestor. Um and then there's this closure of the of the battery group at at Hydro Quebec, and you're able to basically restart a battery effort within Hydro Quebec with the help of US partners and the DOE and government labs, and you turn that into a commercial success, basically, where um the innovations that happen on the front of LFP and and other technologies succeed in creating license revenues that basically propel the battery lab at Hydro Quebec um to world class. Um, first of all, I just want to make sure that that recap is accurate, but also can you talk a little bit about the the development of those technologies that um end up being licensed? You know, so I know that you know one of those key moments was the carbon coding of LFP. Can you can you talk a little bit about the the technological innovations that um that occurred and and your role in them?
SPEAKER_01Yeah,
Carbon Coating Breakthroughs
SPEAKER_01uh okay. So if I come back on uh on after 1999, uh so not only we developed the lithium-ion batteries, okay, there was also the technology that we developed, maybe a few people know. At this time, Hydro Quebec was a pioneer in electrochromics windows, okay. We are using solid-state electrochromics windows. And the other thing also was European, European PF6, PF7, now is Horizon. Okay, and then what happened? Uh Horizon for through Fraunhofer Institute, they helped us also to get money in order to stabilize and to increase, uh, to increase the teams and so on. So the team at this time going from 3-5 to become like 25 persons. So what uh if I come back to the technology, what you said, we were focusing uh on the lithium ions and also focusing on the uh focusing on uh on the electrochromics, uh Windows solid state battery. Okay, and then the development of the technology at this time and conversations, we was focusing on on uh three areas. The area you said is carbon-coated, and then not forget the basic LFP patent is coming from John Godinov. And then the carbon-coated is joined between University of Montreal uh and uh Hydro Quebec and CNS. So why why Hydro Quebec? Uh why University of Montreal and uh CNS? Because Michel Armand, one of the authors, uh has a position in CNS and position in Montreal. So I don't like to spoke of about this polymique this way and this way. I think the author is mentioned, and
Five Minute EV Charging
SPEAKER_01this time also I was developing carbon coated for LTO in order to receive to make 100C. And then I come back also with the first five-charge, five-minute charge LTO LFP batteries, and thanks to the some uh person he called it uh uh Donald Yu in Taiwan, he is building the first EV in the world with LP in 2009. We ship one to John Gudinov, five car in Hydro Quebec, and at World Energy Council, this is you can find in journal power sources, that we were using carbon-coated LTO, carbon-coated LAP. We can charge them to 100C, and we make a demonstration at World Energy Council in Montreal for charging cars in five minutes.
SPEAKER_05You're saying the the charge rate was a 100C rate. In other words, one one hundredth of an hour you could charge it.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes, and then and the car, if you can see the journal power sources that we published, was five minutes. We build the charge, yeah. We built it at the six million volt, six million volt uh lab hydro keyback high voltage, big chargers, and then we we bring the journalists and we bring the pair for working them demonstration of five-minute charging.
SPEAKER_05Five minute charging, and what year was that? In 2010. There you go. 2010, we had five minute charging there. That's awesome. Yeah, that's fantastic.
SPEAKER_01I I can't send uh I can't send you the paper. We we put the picture of the car, we put the date and the data.
SPEAKER_05Yeah.
SPEAKER_012010. And 2019, we succeed to make the first before the Chinese, the first EV. Uh, and uh the the cars was buy from France from Elsie. These cars is built for the people they lose their license drive license, I see, or the people they have no drive license. So we buy these cars, we take the motors out, and we put the electric motors and the LFP batteries.
SPEAKER_05I don't know if you got a chance to hear our most recent uh publication of the podcast, but we were talking to Bill Howard, and one of the things we talked about was lithium titanate. Uh, you know, they Medtronic ended up using lithium titanate in uh neurological devices, and um and one of the things he said was that uh it just like lasts forever. Uh you know, because you're so far from the lithium potential, the psych life is like forever, longer than any patient.
SPEAKER_01You see, it's very interesting. You see, because also I'm going to write a nice history on LTU because old people, you see, my first time I I learned about LTU was in 1986 or 1987. There was a seminar of Professor Ravo. Professor Ravo is from Conn University. This guy is outstanding to develop the best material. If you see these guys from IBM in uh Zurich, they can they get uh Nobel Prize uh on Supracond. This guy he synthesized all these materials. And my first time to see LTU, and then he said this material has no volumic expansion. So Japanese and Kolbu and AS was taking, and unfortunately, few people mention the origin of these materials. And then if you go to the 70, is the Professor Ravu, he came with lithium 4, titanium-5 and so on. And then Michel Armand and Gauthi and me, we published it the first time an institute SEM showing showing this kind of uh no volume expansion. And also, thanks to the DOE and Berkeley collaboration, we come back also pioneer of hybrid supercapacitors. There was collaboration between because Kim Kenoshita is carbon guy, and then with Michel Arma and myself, we said, why not using LTU as hybrid supercapacitors?
SPEAKER_05Yeah, I see, right?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, so you can see if I come back to Vincent, we come back with many, many uh conversation, not only on LAP, was LTU with carbon coated, and also some some basic patent also was belonged to Mike Takeri in in Argo National Lab. And then when we we saw that South Africa has the patent, and then I asked Mike, why not join our patent? So we were joining our portfolio, and then we license for hybrid supercapacitors and so on, and
Electrolytes and Graphite IP
SPEAKER_01then also Velzin in the electrolyte side. In the electrolyte side, also we were very strong. We come back with many, many molten salt or ionic liquid, some salt like LIFSI, uh, TFSI, some boron salt, a lot of family that uh Michel Armand and the group of hydrokeback others we have many, but not. So this is not only on LP and also graphite-coated uh graphite, spherical graphite. Also, we was the pioneer on this area, also.
SPEAKER_02Right. When you say spherical graphite, do you mean the spheronization of graphite?
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes. Okay, there are there are spherization of graphite. I license also technology to many companies in Brazil, others there in in India, and also Nouveau Mont Graphite. Nouveau Mont Graphite today, very known. The first license, I think, was in 2017. And also, thanks to Lawrence Bakley Lab, we come back with the first no HF purification. All in China, in Japan, for purification of uh graphite, they're using HF. As you know, because we need to take silicate, only HF takes again. And we come back with the new component, they call it NH fluorite. And this is big breakthrough today using in mining on purification. This is another also innovation that make it on the type of uh of purification and also uh uh recycling for negative electrodes on graphite and also artificial graphite.
SPEAKER_02So you were able to assemble portfolios of patents that were able to generate revenue for Hydro Quebec and and fund the battery efforts, um, which was fantastic. But more broadly, for Hydro Quebec, what is the vision for batteries? Like, why does Hydro Quebec as a utility what is their purpose for batteries?
SPEAKER_05In in that time?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah, I no exactly.
SPEAKER_02Like I'm I'm talking about uh 2000, the year 2000.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes.
Utility Vision for Storage
SPEAKER_01At this time, as it's it's very important, okay. So the energy storage, if in in order, in order to increase, to increase the production of electricity and so on, Hydro-Quebec, the main business was hydroelectricity, okay. But in north part of Quebec, they are indigenous and First Nations, and this is their off-grid. And maybe you can use the boat once a year to bring the but sometimes if they are short of the gasoline, you need to use aeroplanes to bring the gasoline. Wow. So we will succeed to make them off-grid using renewable energy. So if you like to use off-grid with no fossil fuel, you need to use battery and also solar and wheat. This is one application. Let's see, small town near Montreal. In uh, there was also we build uh two megawatt megawatt hours. So new town is coming to to increase the populations, and you need to invest like 200 million on the station and so on. In order to defer this big investment, what you are not just adding the batteries for the community, and then you defer your the you defer your uh uh your investment. I give you another another, you you was living in Minneapolis, very cold place. Sometimes in winter here, let's see minus 30, minus 40. The peak demand is very high. It can be 43, 44, maybe 45,000 megawatt at seven o'clock. And then you must be careful on your grid. But if you are putting in the end of your line hundred and hundreds of megawatt, megawatt hour battery, they're going to help you to reduce all load living the peak and so on. So this is very important for peak shaving by winter, and also sometimes also hydroquec export electricity in in uh outside the uh in USA and so on. Let's see you have big productions by by uh by night, and then you storage them in the batteries, and during the day you can sell the battery that you storage by batteries.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, um, absolutely. So does does uh in the year 2000-ish, does Hydro Quebec end up doing any um grid storage with lithium-ion batteries?
SPEAKER_01Yes, I believe so. This is what uh we create uh and we was in discussion to create uh one, I think, hydroquebec distribution. They build near near the lab, they call it smart uh smart grid. This is very important. And also, when we said about innovation in 1999 at these times, we saw that LAP and LTO, LAP has over 10,000 cycles. We publish it, and also LL LTU LFP, they have all over 30,000 cycles. And right now, our way is to think about vehicle to grid and vehicle to home. This is the one main. And then we was building what we call a distribution smart line to think to build the battery. So we was uh buying some uh I think some few kilowatt hours battery from Sony to test them at this experimental line in Varan, and also how to build the vehicle to grid and vehicle to home. And then we started negotiation with Sony to create a joint venture Italians, and this is very important to learn. And this is we said that energy scale grid made by utility for utilities, because as utility you know how to make 1000 volt, how to make connections, what's the best connection, and so on. Yeah, let's see utility make at this time for utility is to reduce the risk and so on.
SPEAKER_05Right. Yeah, I see. So they they have that expertise, the the very high voltage expertise, and there's a lot of still exists now.
SPEAKER_01The name of the company is Ivlo.
SPEAKER_05Ah, right. Okay.
SPEAKER_02You know, what strikes me in your as you sort of lay out your your career path is just how much um networking and joint projects and collaborations played a role, and how you know, from the collaborations with the CNIRS and with University of Montreal and Hydro Quebec and with Sony, um, all of these joint projects were able to achieve really great things, and you were able to also, in the same way, sort of combine patent portfolios for the benefit of the of the different partners. Um when you look at sort of shifting a little bit on the topic, with this in mind, when you look at current day or just looking forward for the the strategy for North America with batteries, what do you see as sort of the way to move forward as a society on batteries in in North America?
Collaboration Core Satellite
SPEAKER_01Yes, uh before I respond to your questions, I want to to explain the collaboration like uh cosmic cosmic, okay?
SPEAKER_05So you have you have the philosophy of collaboration.
SPEAKER_01Yes, yes. So it's very important to have to have the noyu and the satellite, okay? And the noyu, the noyu is very important to have core. Yes, to have a core team. Because I am here, but I am speaking on all the team that I built. Without the teams, you cannot be far. Because one thing, the deliverable, when you get this contract, is not hard, it's not just showing the paper. You need to deliver sample, you need to deliver uh materials. I was working with the US Army, they need they are very exigent for the samples and so on. So these people working hard night, day to deliver. And this one is honestly these people work very hard to you and so on, and then the satellite, all this nice collaboration that you keep them strong around you, around the core, in order to success. Without these two different teams, you cannot be any success, even you are you are great, great uh leaders. So, of course, you are here, but without this kind of ecosystem, you cannot. Okay. I come to your question, it's a great question.
China Visit and Policy Gap
SPEAKER_01Listen, I was in China about three weeks. Uh recently, uh yes. Okay. Uh I I was uh visiting and then testing company. This company they start working on battery in 2022 and they are producing 65 gigawatt hours. Wow.
SPEAKER_05So fast.
SPEAKER_01And then they build robot, they build cars, they build everything. Why I was there because our first minister, he was decided to buy or to purses 49,000 EV cars from China. I was interviewed during my experience 40 years on EV, China, and so on. I was interviewed by the Chamber of Communes in Ottawa to explain them because cybersecurity, national security, and so on is an issue and so on. But today, honestly speaking, Chinese are beyond us. But I was also writing in newspaper, in Douvoir, open letters. I see the Chinese they want to come here, they want to invest with us on research and development. Yeah, they want to open the technology, transfer the technology, as what Quebec, Canada, and USA was doing in 7080 was we win-win. We cannot have win-lose. I believe I am optimistic in next year. So what happened? China models its long-term investment and support of the both government and local government. What happened in North America? I believe our friend Stephen Shu, which I know him very well. Yeah, Stephen Shu was one of the best guys. He coming with Obama, he comes with very interesting virage and coming with the stimulus package, building, I think the first guy in 2009-10. Unfortunately, Stephen Shu is not there, so change on because we are not consistent in our policy in Canada, in USA. China or Korea or Japan, they are always always close to the private company. So in Canada, in Quebec, they can one year, two years they can help. And after is the small fish. Small fish cannot swim by himself. Right. To go to ocean to an So we need to change our policy and in also to have intense finance support to build bati. I I believe bate and EI they are the best way that our government in North America that should have consistent and long, long, long-term final support, not short term.
SPEAKER_05Yeah, the artificial intelligence. Yeah, it's you know it's an interesting point. I mean, I think it's sort of easy for us to re to say um that China has consistent 20-year support for policies and and sort of say uh you know, without that you can't do that. But look at Japan and Korea. They also have long-term consistent support of these industries, uh, even though their government changes. Uh, you know what I'm saying? So they they have new uh new people coming into power, but that support and that connection with the industry remains consistent. And that's something somehow lacking in the US and Canada.
SPEAKER_01I am I I am I am fully agree with you. So we need really to think about consistency, and also I believe uh Vincent speaks. We need to have this kind of uh national project. I think the DOE was doing, but today all this national project almost disappeared. I am very sorry to tell that. Before was outstanding relationship between Canada, USA, we have battery Canada, USA, close relationship. This kind of uh, do you know there was a battery advanced USCBC, which is amazing. Of course, USCBC was playing on us, but recently, as I said, only Asians, I think Europeans maybe they go into this stuff because I believe we have the way, we have the creativity, we have the ecosystem. Right between if you see between USA and Canada, what we have capital humans, best university in the world, a good innovation company, 3M, Early Kid, all these companies are here, Tesla, Apple, and so on. Ecosystem in Canada, all the critical minerals copper, graphite, silicon, lithium, nickel, manganese, cobalt, aluminium, all these materials are here in Quebec and in Canada. The energy is very cheap, is very cheap in Quebec. Ontario we have the nuclears, we have all this one, and then we have a good exchange between the G7, stable countries. Any person wants to invest the money, the banking, the finance, everything is clear here. We can make the audit. We have deep sea, we have very good logistics. So interesting. Because the ecosystem is around here. Eco system is ready. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_05So um so just to on the the recent, relatively recent policy change in Canada allowed um some some significant number of uh EVs made in in China coming into Canada. And it sounds like you you um you had a role in that and you were able to go uh visit the uh Chinese company lately. So you have a really good kind of inside view of that. And it sounds like you're if I understood you right, I'd like uh it sound like you're saying that um there is real opportunity for good win-win here. There's you don't don't don't be afraid that we'll be taken advantage of or something like that. No, this is a win-win opportunity. I wonder if you can elaborate on the potential win-win opportunity of of uh bringing in uh manufacturers and so on from from China into Canada or US and so on.
Win Win Joint Ventures
SPEAKER_01So um as as I said, I'm looking, this is for win-win. So far, what I visit they are more advanced. Okay. As you know, if you see 1990, the lithium ion shifts from Korea and now they shift from uh they shift uh for uh uh for uh China. I just see today uh linked in from uh international agency uh uh data from for example LFP lithium ion body almost over 95 percent in China and now is over 50 percent worldwide. Okay, so we can we can come back here as you know, and then we said okay, we can manufacture through joint ventures, through through uh uh through technology transfers, and behind that also, if you need some critical minerals, but we need to make transformation here first, and then we can build it that it's take and give. If you have any critical mineral that you need, after the transformation, you can use it for in China and so on, because you must have take and give, and then also the transformation you mean like you might pull out a raw material and then uh extract the and purify the element, and then you can export it. Yes, yes, yes, yes, it's very good. So, not just using like uh what happened in Africa, raw material going no, no. We make transformation, create job here. So we have the materials that you can make component in your cut anode materials, and then also building a research institute. I think Chinese they start also now in Europe. I think in Europe they are successfully. They are company, there are many companies, they build also factory now in in Spain, in France, and they have also research institute. Because when companies make research institute, investment is some means this company is serious and so on. And then you can develop relationship with academia, with industry that win-win, and then and then always what I said, I said you need to share the IP 50-50. They can use the share, the IP, I think we can make first close close Canada US. We start to make the first manufacturers in Canada and in US, and the second manufacturers in China. And this is very good. So it's not is not any disease. So because if you close mind, they said, oh, they do buy the said and of course, respecting national security, respecting cybersecurity, respecting this one, but we need to go in win-win via joint venture, via national research, national project together.
Closing Reflections
SPEAKER_01I I believe I really enjoy, I really enjoy questions. As I told you, uh my my my way is to uh the this maybe this uh reportage is really good for future generations. We are not here uh eternal, only pa eternel. We we need really to come with some uh positive stuff and so on.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I absolutely and one of our one of our hopes, I think, with this podcast is to is to learn from all those you know fantastic contributions from from the 80s, the 90s, the early 2000s of of everything that's been achieved and and what we can learn so that we can move forward and that we can achieve even more.
SPEAKER_05Exactly. I mean I think what we see in that um so for the listeners, we just had the International Meeting of Lithium Batteries that uh Karim Sagheb uh and uh Kell Amin recently organized, it was fantastic in Montreal. And you know, you run into a lot of uh young students there, especially at the posters, and um, you know, a lot of them think they're looking at uh a problem that uh has never been seen before. But you find out, no, no, yeah, it was studied and and worked on in 1990 and in 1970, you know, far back, you know. And and so that's that's one of the things that's so valuable about this kind of conversation.
SPEAKER_02Thank you so much, Karim. I mean you you really outlined quite a detailed sort of path forward. I think that was kind of fascinating and and very very detailed. I just want to thank you. Um merci beaucoup. Battery potential is produced by Cyclical, a battery consulting and services company headed by Vincent Chevry and Larry Krauss. Music by Big Flavor.
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